In part three of our three-part mini-series on "Young American Outlaws", we'll look at the case of Luigi Mangione.
In December 2024, the CEO of UnitedHealthcare was shot and killed in New York City, with the words "deny," "defend," and "depose" found on the bullet casings.
The suspect? Luigi Mangione, a young University of Pennsylvania graduate...
[00:00:05] Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to English Learning for Curious Minds, by Leonardo English, the show where you can listen to fascinating stories and learn weird and wonderful things about the world at the same time as improving your English.
[00:00:21] I'm Alastair Budge, and today it’s part three of our mini-series on “Young American Outlaws”.
[00:00:28] In part one, we learned about the story of Ross Ulbricht, the founder of the drug marketplace Silk Road.
[00:00:36] In part two, we heard about the brilliant but tragically short life of Aaron Swartz, the young man who believed so much in internet freedom that he found himself up against the US government.
[00:00:49] And in today’s episode, part three, we are going to be talking about Luigi Mangione, the man who gunned down the CEO of one of America’s largest healthcare companies in broad daylight.
[00:01:02] So, let’s not waste a minute and get right into it.
[00:01:08] The two previous characters in this mini-series, Ross Ulbricht and Aaron Swartz, might have committed acts the US government considered “felonies”–serious crimes–but they never picked up a weapon and harmed anyone directly.
[00:01:25] In Ross Ulbricht’s case, his critics might say that his drug and contraband marketplace indirectly harmed and killed thousands, tens of thousands even.
[00:01:37] And in Aaron Swartz’s case, even his greatest critics would surely agree that the most significant “harm” caused was the potential loss of some corporate revenue and damage to the concept of copyright.
[00:01:53] And Aaron Swartz, were he still alive today, would justifiably question why he was mentioned even in the same sentence as the subject of today’s episode.
[00:02:06] Luigi Mangione, as you will probably remember, murdered a man in broad daylight.
[00:02:13] Or to be completely correct, as of the time of recording, stands accused of murder, as the case has not yet gone to trial.
[00:02:23] So here’s what happened, as far as we know so far.
[00:02:29] On the morning of December 4th, 2024, the CEO of the American health insurance company, UnitedHealthcare, was in New York City for an investor conference.
[00:02:41] It was nothing out of the ordinary for Brian Thompson.
[00:02:46] The 50-year-old boss of America’s largest health insurance company travelled a lot, and Wall Street was a regular haunt for him.
[00:02:56] After all, this was a company valued at almost $500 billion, one that provides medical insurance for 50 million people, or 1 in 6 Americans.
[00:03:09] At 6.40 am that morning, Thompson left the Marriott hotel he was staying at and made the short walk to the hotel where the conference would be taking place.
[00:03:21] Presumably, Thompson thought it would be a day like any other.
[00:03:26] Perhaps a few tough questions from investors, reassurances that the company was going in the right direction, reminders of how the share price and the company’s profits had increased by 50% since Thompson had taken over three years earlier, and how his $10 million a year compensation package was therefore a small price to pay, and how UnitedHealthcare was delivering excellent service and value for the American people.
[00:03:55] The day didn’t pan out like that.
[00:03:59] Four minutes after leaving his hotel, at 06.44 he was shot multiple times, in the back and the leg.
[00:04:10] Minutes later, the emergency services arrived on the scene to find this corporate titan in a pool of blood. He was whisked to hospital, but pronounced dead less than half an hour later.
[00:04:26] To state the obvious, this was huge news. He might not have been a household name, in the category of Elon Musk or Bill Gates, but this was the boss of one of the biggest companies, not just in America, but the whole world.
[00:04:45] There seemed to be no personal motive; Thompson had worked in corporate America his entire life, he hadn’t got tangled up in organised crime or got involved in any kind of serious personal dispute, he was praised by colleagues as a “good, honest man”.
[00:05:07] The evidence at the crime scene, however, suggested a motive.
[00:05:12] The words "deny," "defend" and "depose" were found scrawled on three of the used bullet casings, one word on each.
[00:05:23] This seemed eerily similar to a phrase often associated with the health insurance industry to avoid paying claims, “delay, deny, and defend”.
[00:05:35] “Delay” refers to how companies drag out the claim process, “deny” means rejecting claims outright, and “defend” means engaging in extended legal battles with the claimant.
[00:05:50] Suddenly, it seemed like the assassin’s target wasn’t Brian Thompson the man, but rather Brian Thompson the CEO, Brian Thompson as a symbol of the health insurance industry.
[00:06:05] Fortunately for the police, the entire thing, this daylight murder, had been caught on CCTV.
[00:06:14] A huge manhunt ensued, with the New York City police department offering a reward of $10,000 for information about the shooter, a reward that was then upped to $50,000 when the FBI joined in the investigation.
[00:06:31] As you may well remember, as it all happened less than a year ago, photos started to emerge of the suspected killer. He was tall, white, and young, with a pearly white smile.
[00:06:46] He seemed to be pretty aware of the presence of CCTV cameras, and always covered his face and had his hood up, but he let down his guard a couple of times, once lowering his mask to flirt with a receptionist at a New York City hostel.
[00:07:05] A couple of days later, a backpack was recovered in Central Park, containing Monopoly money and a Tommy Hilfiger jacket.
[00:07:14] But still, no sign of the suspect.
[00:07:18] A few days later, on December 9th, five days after Brian Thompson was pronounced dead, Pennsylvania police received a call from a McDonald’s employee.
[00:07:31] There was someone sitting in the restaurant who bore a striking resemblance to the pictures of the suspect in the shooting.
[00:07:40] The police arrived on the scene and detained the man.
[00:07:45] He was searched, and on his person were found a 3D-printed gun and suppressor, similar to those suspected of having been used in the shooting. They also found a fake driver’s licence and a lengthy letter criticising the US healthcare system.
[00:08:05] It seemed police had found their man.
[00:08:09] He was named as Luigi Mangione, and was a 26-year-old University of Pennsylvania graduate with no prior criminal record.
[00:08:20] In the letter, which was described by many news outlets as a manifesto, Mangione laid clear his motivations.
[00:08:30] It was 262 words in total, so I won’t read all of it, but it was enough to ignite a political firestorm.
[00:08:40] In it, he wrote: “Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming.” He railed against America’s healthcare system, highlighting the absurdity of a country spending more on healthcare than anywhere else while ranking 42nd in life expectancy.
[00:09:00] In the letter–or manifesto–Mangione indirectly confessed to the killing, but showed no remorse, instead painting himself as a warrior for social justice.
[00:09:15] The Manhattan District Attorney didn’t see it that way, and Mangione was indicted with 11 different charges relating to the murder.
[00:09:25] This was on December 17th, 2024, and he has remained in police custody ever since.
[00:09:34] Now, on one level, this is a straightforward, clear-cut case. A man was murdered in cold blood by another. The accused has not denied it. Murder is a very serious crime, and Luigi Mangione will go to trial, most probably be found guilty, and be sentenced in accordance with the law.
[00:09:59] It’s a murder case, one of almost 20,000 every year in the United States, and this seems relatively simple.
[00:10:08] But there are many aspects of this case that are unusual.
[00:10:14] Mangione was not a hardened criminal. He had no prior criminal convictions, was not known to the police, and his profile was far from typical for someone facing murder charges.
[00:10:28] He had gone to an expensive, private secondary school and graduated at the top of his class. He had studied computer engineering at the Ivy League University of Pennsylvania, one of the top universities in the country, and had had a few highly-paid jobs working in technology.
[00:10:47] He was young, tall, and handsome.
[00:10:51] He had suffered from some chronic back problems, so there was a personal reason for him to feel animosity towards the healthcare system, but it was nothing particularly out of the ordinary.
[00:11:05] And as more details emerged about Mangione, his manifesto, and the crime, instead of criticism, there were widespread social media posts in support, portraying him as a sort of 21st-century folk hero, a figure willing to stand up against an unjust system.
[00:11:28] The hashtag #FreeLuigi started to trend; you could buy t-shirts and mugs with his face on, in a sort of Che Guevara style.
[00:11:38] The McDonald’s employee who called the police after recognising him received death threats, and the branch of McDonald’s where he was apprehended by police was inundated with negative reviews.
[00:11:52] So why did this case capture such a strange kind of public imagination?
[00:11:58] Well, part of the answer lies in the target.
[00:12:03] Brian Thompson might not have known Luigi Mangione, but he wasn’t some random passer-by.
[00:12:10] He wasn’t an unlucky victim of circumstance.
[00:12:14] He was the very visible head of the most powerful health insurance company in America, the face of an industry that is one of the most controversial in the country.
[00:12:25] As I’m sure you know, healthcare in the United States has long been a political battleground.
[00:12:32] Medical bills are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy. Stories of patients being denied life-saving treatment because of insurance loopholes are depressingly common.
[00:12:45] And around 30 million Americans have no health insurance at all.
[00:12:52] So when Luigi Mangione’s letter was published, when people saw the words he had scrawled on those bullet casings and read his note, his manifesto, for some the narrative shifted.
[00:13:07] It wasn’t simply a story about a young man accused of murder. It was presented as an act of rebellion against a system that millions believe to be broken.
[00:13:19] For some, Brian Thompson wasn’t an unlucky casualty; he was far from innocent.
[00:13:26] He was the boss of a company that made billions of dollars in profits by denying payouts to its customers, causing them anything from distress to bankruptcy to not being able to pay for life-saving treatment.
[00:13:40] He was the figurehead of an organisation that, to its biggest critics, directly resulted in the early deaths of thousands of people every year.
[00:13:52] Mangione needed to take drastic action for the country to wake up, and if a man needed to die for the insurance industry to be fixed, so be it.
[00:14:04] To Luigi Mangione’s most ardent supporters, Brian Thompson, and anyone presiding over this broken healthcare system, had it coming.
[00:14:14] Others, of course, saw it very differently.
[00:14:18] Whatever grievances Mangione may have had with the American healthcare system, he had still taken a gun and ended a stranger’s life.
[00:14:27] To his critics, he was no hero, just a murderer who tried to disguise his crime with political slogans.
[00:14:36] And interestingly enough, support for Mangione wasn’t as clear cut as right versus left.
[00:14:44] For starters, Mangione’s own politics were unclear. He was painted as an extreme leftist by the right-leaning press, but he expressed both praise and criticism for politicians on the left and right; he had no clear political ideology, other than a visceral hatred of corporate greed.
[00:15:09] And in terms of where support came from after his arrest, it wasn’t black and white.
[00:15:16] Those on the political left, especially on the extreme left, were more likely to side with him, but he also had support from some figures on the right, who railed against corporate greed and cronyism.
[00:15:30] And this support wasn’t a niche thing.
[00:15:34] According to one survey done shortly after his arrest, 47% of people identifying as “very liberal” reported having a favourable or extremely favourable opinion of Mangione.
[00:15:49] And it was a similar story when it came to age. Younger Americans were more likely to view him positively, with 39% of 18-29-year-olds saying they viewed him either positively or very positively. 32% of this age group said they didn’t know, and only 29% said they viewed him unfavourably.
[00:16:13] To repeat that, more young Americans viewed him favourably than unfavourably, and this was a man whose only public act, the only reason his name was known, was that he murdered a man in broad daylight.
[00:16:30] Naturally, as the public support, especially among younger Americans, was clear, the comments sections of newspapers were filled with opinion pieces about what went wrong.
[00:16:41] How did things get so bad?
[00:16:44] Is there such public distaste with corporate greed, especially among young people, that people believe such a drastic action is justified?
[00:16:53] Is the healthcare system so truly broken that murdering one of its executives is lauded as a public service?
[00:17:03] While all of this discussion was going on, there was also the question of what punishment should await Luigi Mangione?
[00:17:11] In the United States, as you may know, there are both state and federal crimes, so he could be charged under New York and federal law.
[00:17:23] The importance of this comes down to the question of the death penalty.
[00:17:28] For the most serious crimes — murder, terrorism, treason — the state can and does pursue the death penalty.
[00:17:38] New York State, where the crime was committed, no longer uses capital punishment, but this case was so high-profile, and the murder so symbolic, that prosecutors began exploring the possibility of federal charges.
[00:17:55] And at the federal level, the death penalty is still very much on the books.
[00:18:02] This is where politics elbowed its way into the judicial system.
[00:18:07] Donald Trump, during his first term, was a vocal supporter of capital punishment, even authorising a record number of federal executions in his final months in office.
[00:18:19] He argued that it was a deterrent, and in the case of heinous crimes like terrorism or murder of public officials, it was not only justified but necessary.
[00:18:32] And shortly after being sworn in for his second term, he signed an executive order pushing for capital punishment to be used whenever appropriate. The order was somewhat vague, but specified crimes in which a law-enforcement officer was killed or capital crimes committed by an illegal immigrant.
[00:18:56] To some, especially conservative commentators, the cold-blooded killing of a CEO was exactly the sort of thing Trump was referring to.
[00:19:07] They seized on the manifesto, the scrawled messages, and the symbolism of the act.
[00:19:14] They argued that this wasn’t just a killing; it was domestic terrorism.
[00:19:20] That Mangione hadn’t just murdered Brian Thompson the man, but had attempted to intimidate and destabilise an entire industry, perhaps even the American state itself.
[00:19:34] What’s more, he showed no remorse, no guilt for what he had done.
[00:19:40] In their eyes, if the death penalty wasn’t used here, when should it be?
[00:19:47] But from the other side, the case looked very different.
[00:19:51] Opponents of capital punishment pointed out that the United States is one of the last Western democracies to still execute its citizens.
[00:19:59] They argued that the death penalty doesn’t deter crime, that it’s applied inconsistently, and what’s more, that executing Mangione would risk turning him into exactly the kind of martyr he seemed to want to be.
[00:20:16] If his face was already on Che Guevara-style t-shirts, flags and mugs, executing him would send this into overdrive.
[00:20:27] So the debate spiralled.
[00:20:29] Should the state be making an example out of Mangione, in the harshest possible way?
[00:20:35] Or would doing so only validate his claim that the system is unjust and brutal?
[00:20:42] And hanging over all of this was a deeper, uncomfortable question: what pushed him to do this in the first place?
[00:20:51] Mangione wasn’t a hardened criminal.
[00:20:53] He wasn’t a man with a long record of violence, or a member of an organised gang. He was a university graduate, a young man who, on paper, had every advantage. A bright student, top of his class, with degrees and good jobs behind him.
[00:21:11] By most measures, the sort of person you might expect to be working within the system, not lashing out against it.
[00:21:20] That, in some ways, is part of what made this case so unsettling.
[00:21:25] If someone like Mangione could be radicalised to the point of taking a gun and carrying out a public assassination, and if there was so much public support for him after he did it, then what does that say about the level of anger simmering beneath the surface in American society?
[00:21:44] And this is where his story connects back to the others in this mini-series.
[00:21:50] Ross Ulbricht, Aaron Swartz, and now Luigi Mangione, three very different young men, all accused of crimes, but each one surrounded by a heated political debate that turned them from defendants in a courtroom into larger-than-life symbols of something much bigger.
[00:22:09] Ulbricht, for his supporters, wasn’t just a man who ran an online drug market; he was a digital pioneer pushing back against government control of the internet.
[00:22:19] Swartz wasn’t just someone accused of illegally downloading academic journals; he was a visionary, a martyr for the principle that knowledge should be free.
[00:22:30] And Mangione, at least to some, isn’t just a man accused of murder; he’s a warrior against a system that many see as unjust to its core.
[00:22:42] In the case of Mangione, he is the only one whose case is still pending. Ulbricht is free; Swartz is dead.
[00:22:51] His next trial date is set for September 16th, the week this episode will be released.
[00:22:58] Trump’s appointed Attorney General, Pam Bondi, has publicly instructed federal prosecutors to seek the death penalty.
[00:23:06] No doubt the outside of the courthouse will be packed with supporters holding #FreeLuigi signs, while the officials inside decide on where the process will go next.
[00:23:17] The evidence that he pulled the trigger, and that this was a premeditated murder, seems insurmountable.
[00:23:24] There seems to be little doubt that Mangione will be found guilty; the only question is how history will remember him: as a murderer, a martyr, or something in between.
[00:23:38] OK, then, that is it for today's episode on Luigi Mangione, and with it comes the end of this three-part mini-series on Young American Outlaws.
[00:23:47] I hope it's been an interesting one and that you've learnt something new.
[00:23:50] As always, I would love to know what you thought of this episode, and of this mini-series in general.
[00:23:56] Ross Ulbricht, Aaron Swartz and Luigi Mangione.
[00:23:59] What do you think about their stories, and their crimes, or alleged crimes? Is it fair to lump them all in a similar category?
[00:24:07] Are there similar stories in your country?
[00:24:10] I would love to know, so let’s get this discussion started.
[00:24:13] You can head right into our community forum, which is at community.leonardoenglish.com and get chatting away to other curious minds.
[00:24:22] You've been listening to English Learning for Curious Minds by Leonardo English.
[00:24:27] I'm Alastair Budge, you stay safe, and I'll catch you in the next episode.
[00:00:05] Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to English Learning for Curious Minds, by Leonardo English, the show where you can listen to fascinating stories and learn weird and wonderful things about the world at the same time as improving your English.
[00:00:21] I'm Alastair Budge, and today it’s part three of our mini-series on “Young American Outlaws”.
[00:00:28] In part one, we learned about the story of Ross Ulbricht, the founder of the drug marketplace Silk Road.
[00:00:36] In part two, we heard about the brilliant but tragically short life of Aaron Swartz, the young man who believed so much in internet freedom that he found himself up against the US government.
[00:00:49] And in today’s episode, part three, we are going to be talking about Luigi Mangione, the man who gunned down the CEO of one of America’s largest healthcare companies in broad daylight.
[00:01:02] So, let’s not waste a minute and get right into it.
[00:01:08] The two previous characters in this mini-series, Ross Ulbricht and Aaron Swartz, might have committed acts the US government considered “felonies”–serious crimes–but they never picked up a weapon and harmed anyone directly.
[00:01:25] In Ross Ulbricht’s case, his critics might say that his drug and contraband marketplace indirectly harmed and killed thousands, tens of thousands even.
[00:01:37] And in Aaron Swartz’s case, even his greatest critics would surely agree that the most significant “harm” caused was the potential loss of some corporate revenue and damage to the concept of copyright.
[00:01:53] And Aaron Swartz, were he still alive today, would justifiably question why he was mentioned even in the same sentence as the subject of today’s episode.
[00:02:06] Luigi Mangione, as you will probably remember, murdered a man in broad daylight.
[00:02:13] Or to be completely correct, as of the time of recording, stands accused of murder, as the case has not yet gone to trial.
[00:02:23] So here’s what happened, as far as we know so far.
[00:02:29] On the morning of December 4th, 2024, the CEO of the American health insurance company, UnitedHealthcare, was in New York City for an investor conference.
[00:02:41] It was nothing out of the ordinary for Brian Thompson.
[00:02:46] The 50-year-old boss of America’s largest health insurance company travelled a lot, and Wall Street was a regular haunt for him.
[00:02:56] After all, this was a company valued at almost $500 billion, one that provides medical insurance for 50 million people, or 1 in 6 Americans.
[00:03:09] At 6.40 am that morning, Thompson left the Marriott hotel he was staying at and made the short walk to the hotel where the conference would be taking place.
[00:03:21] Presumably, Thompson thought it would be a day like any other.
[00:03:26] Perhaps a few tough questions from investors, reassurances that the company was going in the right direction, reminders of how the share price and the company’s profits had increased by 50% since Thompson had taken over three years earlier, and how his $10 million a year compensation package was therefore a small price to pay, and how UnitedHealthcare was delivering excellent service and value for the American people.
[00:03:55] The day didn’t pan out like that.
[00:03:59] Four minutes after leaving his hotel, at 06.44 he was shot multiple times, in the back and the leg.
[00:04:10] Minutes later, the emergency services arrived on the scene to find this corporate titan in a pool of blood. He was whisked to hospital, but pronounced dead less than half an hour later.
[00:04:26] To state the obvious, this was huge news. He might not have been a household name, in the category of Elon Musk or Bill Gates, but this was the boss of one of the biggest companies, not just in America, but the whole world.
[00:04:45] There seemed to be no personal motive; Thompson had worked in corporate America his entire life, he hadn’t got tangled up in organised crime or got involved in any kind of serious personal dispute, he was praised by colleagues as a “good, honest man”.
[00:05:07] The evidence at the crime scene, however, suggested a motive.
[00:05:12] The words "deny," "defend" and "depose" were found scrawled on three of the used bullet casings, one word on each.
[00:05:23] This seemed eerily similar to a phrase often associated with the health insurance industry to avoid paying claims, “delay, deny, and defend”.
[00:05:35] “Delay” refers to how companies drag out the claim process, “deny” means rejecting claims outright, and “defend” means engaging in extended legal battles with the claimant.
[00:05:50] Suddenly, it seemed like the assassin’s target wasn’t Brian Thompson the man, but rather Brian Thompson the CEO, Brian Thompson as a symbol of the health insurance industry.
[00:06:05] Fortunately for the police, the entire thing, this daylight murder, had been caught on CCTV.
[00:06:14] A huge manhunt ensued, with the New York City police department offering a reward of $10,000 for information about the shooter, a reward that was then upped to $50,000 when the FBI joined in the investigation.
[00:06:31] As you may well remember, as it all happened less than a year ago, photos started to emerge of the suspected killer. He was tall, white, and young, with a pearly white smile.
[00:06:46] He seemed to be pretty aware of the presence of CCTV cameras, and always covered his face and had his hood up, but he let down his guard a couple of times, once lowering his mask to flirt with a receptionist at a New York City hostel.
[00:07:05] A couple of days later, a backpack was recovered in Central Park, containing Monopoly money and a Tommy Hilfiger jacket.
[00:07:14] But still, no sign of the suspect.
[00:07:18] A few days later, on December 9th, five days after Brian Thompson was pronounced dead, Pennsylvania police received a call from a McDonald’s employee.
[00:07:31] There was someone sitting in the restaurant who bore a striking resemblance to the pictures of the suspect in the shooting.
[00:07:40] The police arrived on the scene and detained the man.
[00:07:45] He was searched, and on his person were found a 3D-printed gun and suppressor, similar to those suspected of having been used in the shooting. They also found a fake driver’s licence and a lengthy letter criticising the US healthcare system.
[00:08:05] It seemed police had found their man.
[00:08:09] He was named as Luigi Mangione, and was a 26-year-old University of Pennsylvania graduate with no prior criminal record.
[00:08:20] In the letter, which was described by many news outlets as a manifesto, Mangione laid clear his motivations.
[00:08:30] It was 262 words in total, so I won’t read all of it, but it was enough to ignite a political firestorm.
[00:08:40] In it, he wrote: “Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming.” He railed against America’s healthcare system, highlighting the absurdity of a country spending more on healthcare than anywhere else while ranking 42nd in life expectancy.
[00:09:00] In the letter–or manifesto–Mangione indirectly confessed to the killing, but showed no remorse, instead painting himself as a warrior for social justice.
[00:09:15] The Manhattan District Attorney didn’t see it that way, and Mangione was indicted with 11 different charges relating to the murder.
[00:09:25] This was on December 17th, 2024, and he has remained in police custody ever since.
[00:09:34] Now, on one level, this is a straightforward, clear-cut case. A man was murdered in cold blood by another. The accused has not denied it. Murder is a very serious crime, and Luigi Mangione will go to trial, most probably be found guilty, and be sentenced in accordance with the law.
[00:09:59] It’s a murder case, one of almost 20,000 every year in the United States, and this seems relatively simple.
[00:10:08] But there are many aspects of this case that are unusual.
[00:10:14] Mangione was not a hardened criminal. He had no prior criminal convictions, was not known to the police, and his profile was far from typical for someone facing murder charges.
[00:10:28] He had gone to an expensive, private secondary school and graduated at the top of his class. He had studied computer engineering at the Ivy League University of Pennsylvania, one of the top universities in the country, and had had a few highly-paid jobs working in technology.
[00:10:47] He was young, tall, and handsome.
[00:10:51] He had suffered from some chronic back problems, so there was a personal reason for him to feel animosity towards the healthcare system, but it was nothing particularly out of the ordinary.
[00:11:05] And as more details emerged about Mangione, his manifesto, and the crime, instead of criticism, there were widespread social media posts in support, portraying him as a sort of 21st-century folk hero, a figure willing to stand up against an unjust system.
[00:11:28] The hashtag #FreeLuigi started to trend; you could buy t-shirts and mugs with his face on, in a sort of Che Guevara style.
[00:11:38] The McDonald’s employee who called the police after recognising him received death threats, and the branch of McDonald’s where he was apprehended by police was inundated with negative reviews.
[00:11:52] So why did this case capture such a strange kind of public imagination?
[00:11:58] Well, part of the answer lies in the target.
[00:12:03] Brian Thompson might not have known Luigi Mangione, but he wasn’t some random passer-by.
[00:12:10] He wasn’t an unlucky victim of circumstance.
[00:12:14] He was the very visible head of the most powerful health insurance company in America, the face of an industry that is one of the most controversial in the country.
[00:12:25] As I’m sure you know, healthcare in the United States has long been a political battleground.
[00:12:32] Medical bills are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy. Stories of patients being denied life-saving treatment because of insurance loopholes are depressingly common.
[00:12:45] And around 30 million Americans have no health insurance at all.
[00:12:52] So when Luigi Mangione’s letter was published, when people saw the words he had scrawled on those bullet casings and read his note, his manifesto, for some the narrative shifted.
[00:13:07] It wasn’t simply a story about a young man accused of murder. It was presented as an act of rebellion against a system that millions believe to be broken.
[00:13:19] For some, Brian Thompson wasn’t an unlucky casualty; he was far from innocent.
[00:13:26] He was the boss of a company that made billions of dollars in profits by denying payouts to its customers, causing them anything from distress to bankruptcy to not being able to pay for life-saving treatment.
[00:13:40] He was the figurehead of an organisation that, to its biggest critics, directly resulted in the early deaths of thousands of people every year.
[00:13:52] Mangione needed to take drastic action for the country to wake up, and if a man needed to die for the insurance industry to be fixed, so be it.
[00:14:04] To Luigi Mangione’s most ardent supporters, Brian Thompson, and anyone presiding over this broken healthcare system, had it coming.
[00:14:14] Others, of course, saw it very differently.
[00:14:18] Whatever grievances Mangione may have had with the American healthcare system, he had still taken a gun and ended a stranger’s life.
[00:14:27] To his critics, he was no hero, just a murderer who tried to disguise his crime with political slogans.
[00:14:36] And interestingly enough, support for Mangione wasn’t as clear cut as right versus left.
[00:14:44] For starters, Mangione’s own politics were unclear. He was painted as an extreme leftist by the right-leaning press, but he expressed both praise and criticism for politicians on the left and right; he had no clear political ideology, other than a visceral hatred of corporate greed.
[00:15:09] And in terms of where support came from after his arrest, it wasn’t black and white.
[00:15:16] Those on the political left, especially on the extreme left, were more likely to side with him, but he also had support from some figures on the right, who railed against corporate greed and cronyism.
[00:15:30] And this support wasn’t a niche thing.
[00:15:34] According to one survey done shortly after his arrest, 47% of people identifying as “very liberal” reported having a favourable or extremely favourable opinion of Mangione.
[00:15:49] And it was a similar story when it came to age. Younger Americans were more likely to view him positively, with 39% of 18-29-year-olds saying they viewed him either positively or very positively. 32% of this age group said they didn’t know, and only 29% said they viewed him unfavourably.
[00:16:13] To repeat that, more young Americans viewed him favourably than unfavourably, and this was a man whose only public act, the only reason his name was known, was that he murdered a man in broad daylight.
[00:16:30] Naturally, as the public support, especially among younger Americans, was clear, the comments sections of newspapers were filled with opinion pieces about what went wrong.
[00:16:41] How did things get so bad?
[00:16:44] Is there such public distaste with corporate greed, especially among young people, that people believe such a drastic action is justified?
[00:16:53] Is the healthcare system so truly broken that murdering one of its executives is lauded as a public service?
[00:17:03] While all of this discussion was going on, there was also the question of what punishment should await Luigi Mangione?
[00:17:11] In the United States, as you may know, there are both state and federal crimes, so he could be charged under New York and federal law.
[00:17:23] The importance of this comes down to the question of the death penalty.
[00:17:28] For the most serious crimes — murder, terrorism, treason — the state can and does pursue the death penalty.
[00:17:38] New York State, where the crime was committed, no longer uses capital punishment, but this case was so high-profile, and the murder so symbolic, that prosecutors began exploring the possibility of federal charges.
[00:17:55] And at the federal level, the death penalty is still very much on the books.
[00:18:02] This is where politics elbowed its way into the judicial system.
[00:18:07] Donald Trump, during his first term, was a vocal supporter of capital punishment, even authorising a record number of federal executions in his final months in office.
[00:18:19] He argued that it was a deterrent, and in the case of heinous crimes like terrorism or murder of public officials, it was not only justified but necessary.
[00:18:32] And shortly after being sworn in for his second term, he signed an executive order pushing for capital punishment to be used whenever appropriate. The order was somewhat vague, but specified crimes in which a law-enforcement officer was killed or capital crimes committed by an illegal immigrant.
[00:18:56] To some, especially conservative commentators, the cold-blooded killing of a CEO was exactly the sort of thing Trump was referring to.
[00:19:07] They seized on the manifesto, the scrawled messages, and the symbolism of the act.
[00:19:14] They argued that this wasn’t just a killing; it was domestic terrorism.
[00:19:20] That Mangione hadn’t just murdered Brian Thompson the man, but had attempted to intimidate and destabilise an entire industry, perhaps even the American state itself.
[00:19:34] What’s more, he showed no remorse, no guilt for what he had done.
[00:19:40] In their eyes, if the death penalty wasn’t used here, when should it be?
[00:19:47] But from the other side, the case looked very different.
[00:19:51] Opponents of capital punishment pointed out that the United States is one of the last Western democracies to still execute its citizens.
[00:19:59] They argued that the death penalty doesn’t deter crime, that it’s applied inconsistently, and what’s more, that executing Mangione would risk turning him into exactly the kind of martyr he seemed to want to be.
[00:20:16] If his face was already on Che Guevara-style t-shirts, flags and mugs, executing him would send this into overdrive.
[00:20:27] So the debate spiralled.
[00:20:29] Should the state be making an example out of Mangione, in the harshest possible way?
[00:20:35] Or would doing so only validate his claim that the system is unjust and brutal?
[00:20:42] And hanging over all of this was a deeper, uncomfortable question: what pushed him to do this in the first place?
[00:20:51] Mangione wasn’t a hardened criminal.
[00:20:53] He wasn’t a man with a long record of violence, or a member of an organised gang. He was a university graduate, a young man who, on paper, had every advantage. A bright student, top of his class, with degrees and good jobs behind him.
[00:21:11] By most measures, the sort of person you might expect to be working within the system, not lashing out against it.
[00:21:20] That, in some ways, is part of what made this case so unsettling.
[00:21:25] If someone like Mangione could be radicalised to the point of taking a gun and carrying out a public assassination, and if there was so much public support for him after he did it, then what does that say about the level of anger simmering beneath the surface in American society?
[00:21:44] And this is where his story connects back to the others in this mini-series.
[00:21:50] Ross Ulbricht, Aaron Swartz, and now Luigi Mangione, three very different young men, all accused of crimes, but each one surrounded by a heated political debate that turned them from defendants in a courtroom into larger-than-life symbols of something much bigger.
[00:22:09] Ulbricht, for his supporters, wasn’t just a man who ran an online drug market; he was a digital pioneer pushing back against government control of the internet.
[00:22:19] Swartz wasn’t just someone accused of illegally downloading academic journals; he was a visionary, a martyr for the principle that knowledge should be free.
[00:22:30] And Mangione, at least to some, isn’t just a man accused of murder; he’s a warrior against a system that many see as unjust to its core.
[00:22:42] In the case of Mangione, he is the only one whose case is still pending. Ulbricht is free; Swartz is dead.
[00:22:51] His next trial date is set for September 16th, the week this episode will be released.
[00:22:58] Trump’s appointed Attorney General, Pam Bondi, has publicly instructed federal prosecutors to seek the death penalty.
[00:23:06] No doubt the outside of the courthouse will be packed with supporters holding #FreeLuigi signs, while the officials inside decide on where the process will go next.
[00:23:17] The evidence that he pulled the trigger, and that this was a premeditated murder, seems insurmountable.
[00:23:24] There seems to be little doubt that Mangione will be found guilty; the only question is how history will remember him: as a murderer, a martyr, or something in between.
[00:23:38] OK, then, that is it for today's episode on Luigi Mangione, and with it comes the end of this three-part mini-series on Young American Outlaws.
[00:23:47] I hope it's been an interesting one and that you've learnt something new.
[00:23:50] As always, I would love to know what you thought of this episode, and of this mini-series in general.
[00:23:56] Ross Ulbricht, Aaron Swartz and Luigi Mangione.
[00:23:59] What do you think about their stories, and their crimes, or alleged crimes? Is it fair to lump them all in a similar category?
[00:24:07] Are there similar stories in your country?
[00:24:10] I would love to know, so let’s get this discussion started.
[00:24:13] You can head right into our community forum, which is at community.leonardoenglish.com and get chatting away to other curious minds.
[00:24:22] You've been listening to English Learning for Curious Minds by Leonardo English.
[00:24:27] I'm Alastair Budge, you stay safe, and I'll catch you in the next episode.
[00:00:05] Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to English Learning for Curious Minds, by Leonardo English, the show where you can listen to fascinating stories and learn weird and wonderful things about the world at the same time as improving your English.
[00:00:21] I'm Alastair Budge, and today it’s part three of our mini-series on “Young American Outlaws”.
[00:00:28] In part one, we learned about the story of Ross Ulbricht, the founder of the drug marketplace Silk Road.
[00:00:36] In part two, we heard about the brilliant but tragically short life of Aaron Swartz, the young man who believed so much in internet freedom that he found himself up against the US government.
[00:00:49] And in today’s episode, part three, we are going to be talking about Luigi Mangione, the man who gunned down the CEO of one of America’s largest healthcare companies in broad daylight.
[00:01:02] So, let’s not waste a minute and get right into it.
[00:01:08] The two previous characters in this mini-series, Ross Ulbricht and Aaron Swartz, might have committed acts the US government considered “felonies”–serious crimes–but they never picked up a weapon and harmed anyone directly.
[00:01:25] In Ross Ulbricht’s case, his critics might say that his drug and contraband marketplace indirectly harmed and killed thousands, tens of thousands even.
[00:01:37] And in Aaron Swartz’s case, even his greatest critics would surely agree that the most significant “harm” caused was the potential loss of some corporate revenue and damage to the concept of copyright.
[00:01:53] And Aaron Swartz, were he still alive today, would justifiably question why he was mentioned even in the same sentence as the subject of today’s episode.
[00:02:06] Luigi Mangione, as you will probably remember, murdered a man in broad daylight.
[00:02:13] Or to be completely correct, as of the time of recording, stands accused of murder, as the case has not yet gone to trial.
[00:02:23] So here’s what happened, as far as we know so far.
[00:02:29] On the morning of December 4th, 2024, the CEO of the American health insurance company, UnitedHealthcare, was in New York City for an investor conference.
[00:02:41] It was nothing out of the ordinary for Brian Thompson.
[00:02:46] The 50-year-old boss of America’s largest health insurance company travelled a lot, and Wall Street was a regular haunt for him.
[00:02:56] After all, this was a company valued at almost $500 billion, one that provides medical insurance for 50 million people, or 1 in 6 Americans.
[00:03:09] At 6.40 am that morning, Thompson left the Marriott hotel he was staying at and made the short walk to the hotel where the conference would be taking place.
[00:03:21] Presumably, Thompson thought it would be a day like any other.
[00:03:26] Perhaps a few tough questions from investors, reassurances that the company was going in the right direction, reminders of how the share price and the company’s profits had increased by 50% since Thompson had taken over three years earlier, and how his $10 million a year compensation package was therefore a small price to pay, and how UnitedHealthcare was delivering excellent service and value for the American people.
[00:03:55] The day didn’t pan out like that.
[00:03:59] Four minutes after leaving his hotel, at 06.44 he was shot multiple times, in the back and the leg.
[00:04:10] Minutes later, the emergency services arrived on the scene to find this corporate titan in a pool of blood. He was whisked to hospital, but pronounced dead less than half an hour later.
[00:04:26] To state the obvious, this was huge news. He might not have been a household name, in the category of Elon Musk or Bill Gates, but this was the boss of one of the biggest companies, not just in America, but the whole world.
[00:04:45] There seemed to be no personal motive; Thompson had worked in corporate America his entire life, he hadn’t got tangled up in organised crime or got involved in any kind of serious personal dispute, he was praised by colleagues as a “good, honest man”.
[00:05:07] The evidence at the crime scene, however, suggested a motive.
[00:05:12] The words "deny," "defend" and "depose" were found scrawled on three of the used bullet casings, one word on each.
[00:05:23] This seemed eerily similar to a phrase often associated with the health insurance industry to avoid paying claims, “delay, deny, and defend”.
[00:05:35] “Delay” refers to how companies drag out the claim process, “deny” means rejecting claims outright, and “defend” means engaging in extended legal battles with the claimant.
[00:05:50] Suddenly, it seemed like the assassin’s target wasn’t Brian Thompson the man, but rather Brian Thompson the CEO, Brian Thompson as a symbol of the health insurance industry.
[00:06:05] Fortunately for the police, the entire thing, this daylight murder, had been caught on CCTV.
[00:06:14] A huge manhunt ensued, with the New York City police department offering a reward of $10,000 for information about the shooter, a reward that was then upped to $50,000 when the FBI joined in the investigation.
[00:06:31] As you may well remember, as it all happened less than a year ago, photos started to emerge of the suspected killer. He was tall, white, and young, with a pearly white smile.
[00:06:46] He seemed to be pretty aware of the presence of CCTV cameras, and always covered his face and had his hood up, but he let down his guard a couple of times, once lowering his mask to flirt with a receptionist at a New York City hostel.
[00:07:05] A couple of days later, a backpack was recovered in Central Park, containing Monopoly money and a Tommy Hilfiger jacket.
[00:07:14] But still, no sign of the suspect.
[00:07:18] A few days later, on December 9th, five days after Brian Thompson was pronounced dead, Pennsylvania police received a call from a McDonald’s employee.
[00:07:31] There was someone sitting in the restaurant who bore a striking resemblance to the pictures of the suspect in the shooting.
[00:07:40] The police arrived on the scene and detained the man.
[00:07:45] He was searched, and on his person were found a 3D-printed gun and suppressor, similar to those suspected of having been used in the shooting. They also found a fake driver’s licence and a lengthy letter criticising the US healthcare system.
[00:08:05] It seemed police had found their man.
[00:08:09] He was named as Luigi Mangione, and was a 26-year-old University of Pennsylvania graduate with no prior criminal record.
[00:08:20] In the letter, which was described by many news outlets as a manifesto, Mangione laid clear his motivations.
[00:08:30] It was 262 words in total, so I won’t read all of it, but it was enough to ignite a political firestorm.
[00:08:40] In it, he wrote: “Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming.” He railed against America’s healthcare system, highlighting the absurdity of a country spending more on healthcare than anywhere else while ranking 42nd in life expectancy.
[00:09:00] In the letter–or manifesto–Mangione indirectly confessed to the killing, but showed no remorse, instead painting himself as a warrior for social justice.
[00:09:15] The Manhattan District Attorney didn’t see it that way, and Mangione was indicted with 11 different charges relating to the murder.
[00:09:25] This was on December 17th, 2024, and he has remained in police custody ever since.
[00:09:34] Now, on one level, this is a straightforward, clear-cut case. A man was murdered in cold blood by another. The accused has not denied it. Murder is a very serious crime, and Luigi Mangione will go to trial, most probably be found guilty, and be sentenced in accordance with the law.
[00:09:59] It’s a murder case, one of almost 20,000 every year in the United States, and this seems relatively simple.
[00:10:08] But there are many aspects of this case that are unusual.
[00:10:14] Mangione was not a hardened criminal. He had no prior criminal convictions, was not known to the police, and his profile was far from typical for someone facing murder charges.
[00:10:28] He had gone to an expensive, private secondary school and graduated at the top of his class. He had studied computer engineering at the Ivy League University of Pennsylvania, one of the top universities in the country, and had had a few highly-paid jobs working in technology.
[00:10:47] He was young, tall, and handsome.
[00:10:51] He had suffered from some chronic back problems, so there was a personal reason for him to feel animosity towards the healthcare system, but it was nothing particularly out of the ordinary.
[00:11:05] And as more details emerged about Mangione, his manifesto, and the crime, instead of criticism, there were widespread social media posts in support, portraying him as a sort of 21st-century folk hero, a figure willing to stand up against an unjust system.
[00:11:28] The hashtag #FreeLuigi started to trend; you could buy t-shirts and mugs with his face on, in a sort of Che Guevara style.
[00:11:38] The McDonald’s employee who called the police after recognising him received death threats, and the branch of McDonald’s where he was apprehended by police was inundated with negative reviews.
[00:11:52] So why did this case capture such a strange kind of public imagination?
[00:11:58] Well, part of the answer lies in the target.
[00:12:03] Brian Thompson might not have known Luigi Mangione, but he wasn’t some random passer-by.
[00:12:10] He wasn’t an unlucky victim of circumstance.
[00:12:14] He was the very visible head of the most powerful health insurance company in America, the face of an industry that is one of the most controversial in the country.
[00:12:25] As I’m sure you know, healthcare in the United States has long been a political battleground.
[00:12:32] Medical bills are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy. Stories of patients being denied life-saving treatment because of insurance loopholes are depressingly common.
[00:12:45] And around 30 million Americans have no health insurance at all.
[00:12:52] So when Luigi Mangione’s letter was published, when people saw the words he had scrawled on those bullet casings and read his note, his manifesto, for some the narrative shifted.
[00:13:07] It wasn’t simply a story about a young man accused of murder. It was presented as an act of rebellion against a system that millions believe to be broken.
[00:13:19] For some, Brian Thompson wasn’t an unlucky casualty; he was far from innocent.
[00:13:26] He was the boss of a company that made billions of dollars in profits by denying payouts to its customers, causing them anything from distress to bankruptcy to not being able to pay for life-saving treatment.
[00:13:40] He was the figurehead of an organisation that, to its biggest critics, directly resulted in the early deaths of thousands of people every year.
[00:13:52] Mangione needed to take drastic action for the country to wake up, and if a man needed to die for the insurance industry to be fixed, so be it.
[00:14:04] To Luigi Mangione’s most ardent supporters, Brian Thompson, and anyone presiding over this broken healthcare system, had it coming.
[00:14:14] Others, of course, saw it very differently.
[00:14:18] Whatever grievances Mangione may have had with the American healthcare system, he had still taken a gun and ended a stranger’s life.
[00:14:27] To his critics, he was no hero, just a murderer who tried to disguise his crime with political slogans.
[00:14:36] And interestingly enough, support for Mangione wasn’t as clear cut as right versus left.
[00:14:44] For starters, Mangione’s own politics were unclear. He was painted as an extreme leftist by the right-leaning press, but he expressed both praise and criticism for politicians on the left and right; he had no clear political ideology, other than a visceral hatred of corporate greed.
[00:15:09] And in terms of where support came from after his arrest, it wasn’t black and white.
[00:15:16] Those on the political left, especially on the extreme left, were more likely to side with him, but he also had support from some figures on the right, who railed against corporate greed and cronyism.
[00:15:30] And this support wasn’t a niche thing.
[00:15:34] According to one survey done shortly after his arrest, 47% of people identifying as “very liberal” reported having a favourable or extremely favourable opinion of Mangione.
[00:15:49] And it was a similar story when it came to age. Younger Americans were more likely to view him positively, with 39% of 18-29-year-olds saying they viewed him either positively or very positively. 32% of this age group said they didn’t know, and only 29% said they viewed him unfavourably.
[00:16:13] To repeat that, more young Americans viewed him favourably than unfavourably, and this was a man whose only public act, the only reason his name was known, was that he murdered a man in broad daylight.
[00:16:30] Naturally, as the public support, especially among younger Americans, was clear, the comments sections of newspapers were filled with opinion pieces about what went wrong.
[00:16:41] How did things get so bad?
[00:16:44] Is there such public distaste with corporate greed, especially among young people, that people believe such a drastic action is justified?
[00:16:53] Is the healthcare system so truly broken that murdering one of its executives is lauded as a public service?
[00:17:03] While all of this discussion was going on, there was also the question of what punishment should await Luigi Mangione?
[00:17:11] In the United States, as you may know, there are both state and federal crimes, so he could be charged under New York and federal law.
[00:17:23] The importance of this comes down to the question of the death penalty.
[00:17:28] For the most serious crimes — murder, terrorism, treason — the state can and does pursue the death penalty.
[00:17:38] New York State, where the crime was committed, no longer uses capital punishment, but this case was so high-profile, and the murder so symbolic, that prosecutors began exploring the possibility of federal charges.
[00:17:55] And at the federal level, the death penalty is still very much on the books.
[00:18:02] This is where politics elbowed its way into the judicial system.
[00:18:07] Donald Trump, during his first term, was a vocal supporter of capital punishment, even authorising a record number of federal executions in his final months in office.
[00:18:19] He argued that it was a deterrent, and in the case of heinous crimes like terrorism or murder of public officials, it was not only justified but necessary.
[00:18:32] And shortly after being sworn in for his second term, he signed an executive order pushing for capital punishment to be used whenever appropriate. The order was somewhat vague, but specified crimes in which a law-enforcement officer was killed or capital crimes committed by an illegal immigrant.
[00:18:56] To some, especially conservative commentators, the cold-blooded killing of a CEO was exactly the sort of thing Trump was referring to.
[00:19:07] They seized on the manifesto, the scrawled messages, and the symbolism of the act.
[00:19:14] They argued that this wasn’t just a killing; it was domestic terrorism.
[00:19:20] That Mangione hadn’t just murdered Brian Thompson the man, but had attempted to intimidate and destabilise an entire industry, perhaps even the American state itself.
[00:19:34] What’s more, he showed no remorse, no guilt for what he had done.
[00:19:40] In their eyes, if the death penalty wasn’t used here, when should it be?
[00:19:47] But from the other side, the case looked very different.
[00:19:51] Opponents of capital punishment pointed out that the United States is one of the last Western democracies to still execute its citizens.
[00:19:59] They argued that the death penalty doesn’t deter crime, that it’s applied inconsistently, and what’s more, that executing Mangione would risk turning him into exactly the kind of martyr he seemed to want to be.
[00:20:16] If his face was already on Che Guevara-style t-shirts, flags and mugs, executing him would send this into overdrive.
[00:20:27] So the debate spiralled.
[00:20:29] Should the state be making an example out of Mangione, in the harshest possible way?
[00:20:35] Or would doing so only validate his claim that the system is unjust and brutal?
[00:20:42] And hanging over all of this was a deeper, uncomfortable question: what pushed him to do this in the first place?
[00:20:51] Mangione wasn’t a hardened criminal.
[00:20:53] He wasn’t a man with a long record of violence, or a member of an organised gang. He was a university graduate, a young man who, on paper, had every advantage. A bright student, top of his class, with degrees and good jobs behind him.
[00:21:11] By most measures, the sort of person you might expect to be working within the system, not lashing out against it.
[00:21:20] That, in some ways, is part of what made this case so unsettling.
[00:21:25] If someone like Mangione could be radicalised to the point of taking a gun and carrying out a public assassination, and if there was so much public support for him after he did it, then what does that say about the level of anger simmering beneath the surface in American society?
[00:21:44] And this is where his story connects back to the others in this mini-series.
[00:21:50] Ross Ulbricht, Aaron Swartz, and now Luigi Mangione, three very different young men, all accused of crimes, but each one surrounded by a heated political debate that turned them from defendants in a courtroom into larger-than-life symbols of something much bigger.
[00:22:09] Ulbricht, for his supporters, wasn’t just a man who ran an online drug market; he was a digital pioneer pushing back against government control of the internet.
[00:22:19] Swartz wasn’t just someone accused of illegally downloading academic journals; he was a visionary, a martyr for the principle that knowledge should be free.
[00:22:30] And Mangione, at least to some, isn’t just a man accused of murder; he’s a warrior against a system that many see as unjust to its core.
[00:22:42] In the case of Mangione, he is the only one whose case is still pending. Ulbricht is free; Swartz is dead.
[00:22:51] His next trial date is set for September 16th, the week this episode will be released.
[00:22:58] Trump’s appointed Attorney General, Pam Bondi, has publicly instructed federal prosecutors to seek the death penalty.
[00:23:06] No doubt the outside of the courthouse will be packed with supporters holding #FreeLuigi signs, while the officials inside decide on where the process will go next.
[00:23:17] The evidence that he pulled the trigger, and that this was a premeditated murder, seems insurmountable.
[00:23:24] There seems to be little doubt that Mangione will be found guilty; the only question is how history will remember him: as a murderer, a martyr, or something in between.
[00:23:38] OK, then, that is it for today's episode on Luigi Mangione, and with it comes the end of this three-part mini-series on Young American Outlaws.
[00:23:47] I hope it's been an interesting one and that you've learnt something new.
[00:23:50] As always, I would love to know what you thought of this episode, and of this mini-series in general.
[00:23:56] Ross Ulbricht, Aaron Swartz and Luigi Mangione.
[00:23:59] What do you think about their stories, and their crimes, or alleged crimes? Is it fair to lump them all in a similar category?
[00:24:07] Are there similar stories in your country?
[00:24:10] I would love to know, so let’s get this discussion started.
[00:24:13] You can head right into our community forum, which is at community.leonardoenglish.com and get chatting away to other curious minds.
[00:24:22] You've been listening to English Learning for Curious Minds by Leonardo English.
[00:24:27] I'm Alastair Budge, you stay safe, and I'll catch you in the next episode.
