Born Cassius Clay in segregated America, he became the most famous man on Earth.
His fights in and outside the ring made him a symbol of pride and protest.
When he changed his name to Muhammad Ali, some refused to use it. He made sure they never forgot it, demanding of his opponents: “What’s my name?”
[00:00:04] Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to English Learning for Curious Minds, by Leonardo English, the show where you can listen to fascinating stories and learn weird and wonderful things about the world at the same time as improving your English.
[00:00:21] I'm Alastair Budge, and today we are going to be talking about Muhammad Ali.
[00:00:28] It's a story about a boxing champion, obviously, but it's also one of identity, civil rights, religion, courage, and the cost of greatness.
[00:00:40] We have a lot to get through today, so let's get right into it.
[00:00:47] If someone told you their name was Cassius Marcellus, your first thought might be that their parents were unusually passionate about Ancient Rome.
[00:00:59] But Cassius Marcellus Clay, the boy born in Louisville, Kentucky, in 1942, was not given this name because of any passion for the Romans; he had the name because his father was given it before him, after a 19th century Kentucky politician of the same name.
[00:01:20] And perhaps that politician’s parents really were fans of Ancient Rome, given that they named another son Brutus Junius.
[00:01:30] Now, this original Cassius Marcellus Clay was an interesting character in his own right; he came from a wealthy and powerful slave-owning family before becoming an anti-slavery activist.
[00:01:43] But today we are talking about the other Cassius Marcellus Clay, Cassius Marcellus Clay Junior, the man more commonly known by the name Muhammad Ali.
[00:01:59] At the start of our story, of course, he was still Cassius.
[00:02:04] His mother, Odessa, was a domestic worker, serving a white family. And his father, Cassius Senior, painted signs for a living. It was, by all accounts, an ordinary childhood: church on Sundays, a modest house, and parents who worked hard to provide for their children.
[00:02:27] But this was America of the 1940s and 1950s, an America that was still deeply divided.
[00:02:36] Black people could live, work, and move with some freedom in certain parts of a city; in others, they were not welcome at all, and they were constantly reminded that they were second-class citizens.
[00:02:51] Now, the story of how Cassius Clay found boxing has become part of boxing folklore, and it goes like this.
[00:03:01] He was twelve years old. He had gone to a fair with some friends, and left his bike outside.
[00:03:10] When he returned, he found the bike was gone. Someone had stolen it.
[00:03:17] He was distraught; it was his pride and joy, his parents had saved up to buy it for him, and someone had snatched it away from him.
[00:03:29] He asked around, and was directed to a local police officer called Joe Martin. Martin patiently listened as the young boy threatened to "whup" the thief when he found him.
[00:03:45] At this time, Cassius Clay was a scrawny little twelve-year-old, so Martin, the police officer, decided he needed to give him some advice, advice that has become legend: "well, you'd better learn how to fight first".
[00:04:02] Now, Cassius Clay never got his bike back, and never managed to "whup" the thief.
[00:04:10] But the meeting, and this advice, would change his life.
[00:04:16] See, Joe Martin, the police officer, also ran a boxing gym, and suggested the young boy come and do some training.
[00:04:27] He did, and by all accounts, he was instantly hooked. He was there before school the following morning, and the morning after that, and the morning after that.
[00:04:41] Cassius was never the biggest boy in the gym, nor was he the strongest. What he had was speed and a dedication that Martin had not seen before in someone so young.
[00:04:54] Six days a week, every week, he was there before dawn. He ran. He skipped rope. He worked the bags. He sparred. Most boys his age would come down and hit a few bags, but nobody took it anywhere near as seriously as young Cassius Clay.
[00:05:16] And there was something else that struck Martin: the boy's fearless, unshakeable confidence in his own ability.
[00:05:26] Martin started to enter him in local competitions, and against all expectations, he won.
[00:05:35] He would fight against bigger, heavier, and older opponents, who on paper should have beaten him. But he kept winning.
[00:05:45] By eighteen, he was the best amateur boxer in the United States, and people around him were urging him to turn professional and start earning.
[00:05:58] He had other plans, at least in the immediate future. The 1960 Olympic Games were around the corner, Cassius Clay wanted a gold medal, and professional boxers weren't allowed at the Olympics.
[00:06:14] So, he stayed amateur, at least for a while.
[00:06:19] There was another logistical problem too. The Olympics were in Rome, and not only had Clay never been on a plane before, but he was terrified of flying.
[00:06:33] He agreed to get on the plane on the condition that he could wear a parachute. He wore it for the entire flight, and fortunately, he did not need to use it.
[00:06:45] At the Olympics, he won every fight. He won the light heavyweight gold medal.
[00:06:52] Not only this, but the Olympics showed a side to the young man that most people weren't aware of.
[00:06:59] He was charming, curious, funny, and not afraid to speak his mind. He wandered through the Olympic Village asking questions and making friends with competitors from countries he had never heard of.
[00:07:15] A Soviet journalist, who was looking to score a point about American racial politics, asked him how he felt about competing for a country where his people were treated as second-class citizens.
[00:07:30] Clay looked at him and said: "Tell your readers we’ve got qualified people working on that problem, and I’m not worried about the outcome. To me, the USA is still the best country in the world, counting yours."
[00:07:45] He came home with the gold medal around his neck, and in October 1960 he turned professional.
[00:07:54] Now, we aren't going to talk too much about his boxing history, but there are some important things to mention when it came to style.
[00:08:05] Back then, there were certain expectations about what a heavyweight boxer was meant to look like, and how they were meant to fight.
[00:08:16] Heavyweight champions were supposed to be powerful and physical and overwhelming. They stood in, absorbed punishment, and delivered it in return. That was the tradition. Two giant men landing huge blows against each other until one was declared the winner.
[00:08:38] Clay was different.
[00:08:41] He moved. He circled. He kept his hands low, which every coach told him was wrong, because it left his body exposed. You should keep your hands up to protect yourself and make it easier to punch back.
[00:08:57] No, Clay said. His reflexes were fast enough that he could move his head and duck out of the way before the punch arrived.
[00:09:08] And this strategy, well, it worked. If you've watched many of his fights, you'll know what I mean. He almost dances around the ring with his arms by his side, his opponent tries to land a knockout blow, only for Clay to duck out of the way and land a jab before his opponent has the time to steady himself.
[00:09:32] Still, many boxing commentators watching his early fights were unconvinced. This "dancing" style tired him out and left his body exposed. He would be found out eventually by someone fast enough and smart enough to take advantage.
[00:09:51] In his early career, at least, that person never came.
[00:09:58] And around the same time, he added another string to his bow.
[00:10:04] When he was nineteen, he met a man named George Wagner, who was better known by his stage name, Gorgeous George.
[00:10:15] Now, Gorgeous George was a professional wrestler, and while he was not the most technically gifted athlete, he had become incredibly famous for creating an outrageous, over-the-top persona.
[00:10:30] He dyed his hair peroxide blonde, he would be carried to the ring on a velvet cushion, he would spray perfume into the air, and declare himself "the greatest wrestler who ever lived."
[00:10:44] It was this complete self-confidence and flamboyance that brought in the crowds, and he spelled this out to Cassius Clay.
[00:10:55] "A lot of people will pay to see someone shut your mouth," George reportedly told him. "So give them a reason to want to."
[00:11:05] In other words, be so arrogant and confident that people come in the hope of watching you lose.
[00:11:13] Now, Clay already had the talent to compete, but with Gorgeous George, he had a template for how to attract attention.
[00:11:23] He began to talk about himself constantly, telling people that he was the greatest boxer ever to live, years before he became a world champion.
[00:11:34] And in February of 1964, the twenty-two-year-old Clay had the biggest fight of his career so far.
[00:11:43] His opponent was Sonny Liston, the heavyweight champion.
[00:11:49] Liston was one of the most feared men in boxing. He was a former criminal with enormous fists and a reputation for ending fights very quickly and very unpleasantly.
[00:12:03] The bookmakers made Liston an overwhelming favourite, and most commentators expected the fight to be over within a few rounds.
[00:12:13] Before the fight, Clay was his usual antagonistic self, proclaiming:
[00:12:19] "Clay comes out to meet Liston, and Liston starts to retreat.
[00:12:23] If Liston goes back any further, he'll end up in a ringside seat."
[00:12:29] The fight ended as Clay had predicted, and Cassius Clay became the heavyweight champion of the world.
[00:12:38] He ran around the ring shouting: "I shook up the world. I am the greatest thing that ever lived."
[00:12:45] But soon after the fight, the attention shifted away from his performance in the ring. Clay publicly confirmed what many people suspected: he had joined an organisation called the Nation of Islam.
[00:13:04] As part of this, he rejected the name Cassius Clay, briefly became Cassius X, and was then given the name the world would come to know him by: Muhammad Ali.
[00:13:18] Now, the Nation of Islam was not a mainstream religious organisation.
[00:13:25] It taught that Black Americans were the original people of the earth and had been subjected to centuries of deliberate oppression.
[00:13:35] It preached Black pride, Black separatism, and economic self-sufficiency. It demanded discipline from its members: no alcohol, no tobacco, no dependence on white institutions.
[00:13:50] Its leader, at that time at least, was a man named Elijah Muhammad, but its most prominent public voice was Malcolm X. In fact, we have a full episode on Malcolm X, episode 294, so that's one to listen to if you haven't done so already.
[00:14:08] But back to Cassius Clay, or to give him his new name, Muhammad Ali.
[00:14:16] This announcement was a powerful message. This was the new heavyweight boxing champion of the world publicly coming out in support of a group that was considered radical by the authorities, and treated with some suspicion by most of mainstream America.
[00:14:34] And to clarify, this wasn't him simply changing faith, switching from Baptist Christianity to Islam; it wasn't a private religious choice. It was a rejection of his past, and a public act of self-definition.
[00:14:52] He rejected “Cassius Clay” as what he called his slave name, a name that connected him to a history he had not chosen. The message was clear: I am not the compliant champion you expected.
[00:15:10] Still, many journalists and commentators refused to use this name, instead insisting on referring to him as Cassius Clay.
[00:15:20] Some opponents did too. Ernie Terrell, a heavyweight champion who fought Ali in February 1967, refused to call him by his name throughout the entire build-up to the fight.
[00:15:35] Ali made it very clear that this was unacceptable.
[00:15:40] When the fight came, Ali won it comfortably.
[00:15:43] But he did not try to end it quickly. He punished Terrell round after round, and between punches he leaned in close and asked the same question, again and again: "What's my name? What's my name?"
[00:15:59] Eventually, people stopped calling him Cassius Clay.
[00:16:05] Now, from the mid-1960s, Ali was the undisputed world heavyweight champion. But he was also a young man in an America at war with Vietnam.
[00:16:20] The military draft was reaching young men across the country, and in 1967, Ali was ordered to report for the US army.
[00:16:31] He refused to go, claiming conscientious objector status on the grounds of his Muslim faith. Ali's position was specific: his faith held that he could not kill people with whom he had no quarrel, and he had no quarrel with the Vietnamese people.
[00:16:54] Or, as he famously put it: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No Viet Cong ever called me nigger."
[00:17:03] The draft board rejected the claim, deciding that his objection was political rather than religious.
[00:17:12] And this rejection had immediate ramifications. He was stripped of his heavyweight title and his boxing licence was suspended. He was convicted of draft evasion and sentenced to five years in prison, but he was released on bail while the case was appealed.
[00:17:35] He was twenty-five years old, at the peak of his physical powers, and not only could he not box, but he had this lengthy prison sentence hanging over his head.
[00:17:49] He did not go to prison in the end. In 1971, the Supreme Court overturned his conviction, unanimously, ruling that the draft board had not given adequate reasons for rejecting his religious claim.
[00:18:05] But the three and a half years he had lost were gone.
[00:18:11] Ali did not disappear, though.
[00:18:13] Barred from boxing, he spent those years travelling across America, speaking at universities and to anyone who would listen. Many of the students he spoke to were themselves wrestling with the draft, the Vietnam War, and the growing tensions inside American society.
[00:18:34] The underlying argument in all of these lectures was serious and entirely consistent. The United States was asking Black Americans to fight overseas for freedoms they did not have at home. The war was unjust. He would not go.
[00:18:55] As the years passed, public opinion about Vietnam shifted. By 1971, the war was deeply unpopular. Ali, who had been denounced as a traitor in 1967, was increasingly seen as someone who had been right all along.
[00:19:14] The cost of that decision had been paid in full: three and a half years of his prime, the loss of his title, and a criminal conviction.
[00:19:26] Ali was allowed to return to the ring in 1970, but he returned a different man.
[00:19:34] He was older and heavier. His legs were slower. He could not move the way he once had, and he absorbed punches that the earlier version of himself would have slipped.
[00:19:48] He fought Joe Frazier three times, and the fights are among the most celebrated in boxing history, and the most complicated.
[00:19:59] Both men were Black, both came from working-class backgrounds, and both were remarkable fighters.
[00:20:07] But the politics and the press turned them into symbols of something larger: Ali the activist, the Muslim, the man who had stood up to authority; Frazier cast, somewhat unfairly, as the establishment choice.
[00:20:27] Ali lost the first fight, in March 1971, on points. It was his first professional defeat.
[00:20:36] Then came the Rumble in the Jungle. October 1974, Kinshasa, Zaire, the modern-day Democratic Republic of Congo.
[00:20:47] His opponent was George Foreman: enormous and devastating, regarded at that point as one of the most dangerous punchers in the history of the sport. Foreman had destroyed Frazier, who, remember, was the man who had given Ali his first professional defeat.
[00:21:09] The fight looked close to impossible.
[00:21:13] The strategy Ali's team had agreed on was the one he had always used: movement, speed, jabs. In the early rounds, he tried it. But Foreman was too young, too powerful. Those jabs barely troubled him.
[00:21:33] So Ali did something nobody in his corner was expecting. He went to the ropes.
[00:21:42] His trainer shouted at him between rounds to get off them. Ali ignored him. He had worked something out that he hadn't shared with anyone: if he leaned back and let Foreman throw punches, Foreman would eventually grow tired. All Ali had to do was cover up and wait.
[00:22:05] Round after round, Foreman threw enormous blows. Ali absorbed them and waited. By the eighth round, Foreman's arms were heavy. Ali came off the ropes and knocked him out.
[00:22:23] It was perhaps the greatest single tactical performance in boxing history. By a man who was thirty-two years old, who had spent three and a half years outside his sport, and whose best days looked like they were behind him.
[00:22:42] The third Frazier fight, the Thrilla in Manila in October 1975, was something else entirely. Both men were so damaged by the fourteenth round that Frazier's trainer stopped the fight rather than send him out for the fifteenth. Ali later said it was the closest thing to death he had ever experienced.
[00:23:08] Now, Muhammad Ali fought on longer than he should have.
[00:23:12] He lost the title, won it back, lost it again.
[00:23:17] By his final years in the ring, the fights were increasingly hard to watch.
[00:23:23] There was one fight in 1980, when Ali was 38, that was particularly painful. It was against a man named Larry Holmes, who had grown up in complete admiration of Ali.
[00:23:38] Although it went to the tenth round, it was so one-sided it was almost embarrassing. Holmes reportedly wept in his dressing room afterwards, saying he felt like he had been hitting a ghost.
[00:23:54] Ali retired in 1981 with fifty-six wins and five losses.
[00:24:02] And in 1984, he was diagnosed with Parkinson's syndrome, the neurological condition that affects movement and speech.
[00:24:13] He never publicly confirmed that it had been caused by the blows he had taken over thirty years of boxing. But many doctors believed it had.
[00:24:23] He had taken far more damage than was good for him, more than his trainers and managers should have allowed.
[00:24:31] You might have seen some interviews with him in his later years. His voice, that quick and irreverent voice, became quieter and harder to understand. His hands started to tremble.
[00:24:47] At the opening ceremony of the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, Ali was chosen to light the cauldron. He walked out with the torch, his hand trembling visibly, and there was almost a collective intake of breath as this great champion stood there, a shadow of the man he once was.
[00:25:10] He died on 3 June 2016, at the age of seventy-four.
[00:25:17] He had refused to fight in a war at twenty-five. He had been stripped of his title and his livelihood.
[00:25:24] He had come back and produced one of the greatest second acts in sporting history. He had stood before the legal system of the most powerful country on earth and said no.
[00:25:38] He had chosen his own name, and made the world use it.
[00:25:43] He referred to himself as "The Greatest". There are only a few people who could say that with a straight face and have much of the world agree with them.
[00:25:53] Muhammad Ali was certainly one of them.
[00:25:58] OK, then, that is it for today's episode on Muhammad Ali.
[00:26:03] I hope it's been an interesting one and that you've learnt something new.
[00:26:07] You've been listening to English Learning for Curious Minds by Leonardo English.
[00:26:11] I'm Alastair Budge, you stay safe, and I'll catch you in the next episode.
[00:00:04] Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to English Learning for Curious Minds, by Leonardo English, the show where you can listen to fascinating stories and learn weird and wonderful things about the world at the same time as improving your English.
[00:00:21] I'm Alastair Budge, and today we are going to be talking about Muhammad Ali.
[00:00:28] It's a story about a boxing champion, obviously, but it's also one of identity, civil rights, religion, courage, and the cost of greatness.
[00:00:40] We have a lot to get through today, so let's get right into it.
[00:00:47] If someone told you their name was Cassius Marcellus, your first thought might be that their parents were unusually passionate about Ancient Rome.
[00:00:59] But Cassius Marcellus Clay, the boy born in Louisville, Kentucky, in 1942, was not given this name because of any passion for the Romans; he had the name because his father was given it before him, after a 19th century Kentucky politician of the same name.
[00:01:20] And perhaps that politician’s parents really were fans of Ancient Rome, given that they named another son Brutus Junius.
[00:01:30] Now, this original Cassius Marcellus Clay was an interesting character in his own right; he came from a wealthy and powerful slave-owning family before becoming an anti-slavery activist.
[00:01:43] But today we are talking about the other Cassius Marcellus Clay, Cassius Marcellus Clay Junior, the man more commonly known by the name Muhammad Ali.
[00:01:59] At the start of our story, of course, he was still Cassius.
[00:02:04] His mother, Odessa, was a domestic worker, serving a white family. And his father, Cassius Senior, painted signs for a living. It was, by all accounts, an ordinary childhood: church on Sundays, a modest house, and parents who worked hard to provide for their children.
[00:02:27] But this was America of the 1940s and 1950s, an America that was still deeply divided.
[00:02:36] Black people could live, work, and move with some freedom in certain parts of a city; in others, they were not welcome at all, and they were constantly reminded that they were second-class citizens.
[00:02:51] Now, the story of how Cassius Clay found boxing has become part of boxing folklore, and it goes like this.
[00:03:01] He was twelve years old. He had gone to a fair with some friends, and left his bike outside.
[00:03:10] When he returned, he found the bike was gone. Someone had stolen it.
[00:03:17] He was distraught; it was his pride and joy, his parents had saved up to buy it for him, and someone had snatched it away from him.
[00:03:29] He asked around, and was directed to a local police officer called Joe Martin. Martin patiently listened as the young boy threatened to "whup" the thief when he found him.
[00:03:45] At this time, Cassius Clay was a scrawny little twelve-year-old, so Martin, the police officer, decided he needed to give him some advice, advice that has become legend: "well, you'd better learn how to fight first".
[00:04:02] Now, Cassius Clay never got his bike back, and never managed to "whup" the thief.
[00:04:10] But the meeting, and this advice, would change his life.
[00:04:16] See, Joe Martin, the police officer, also ran a boxing gym, and suggested the young boy come and do some training.
[00:04:27] He did, and by all accounts, he was instantly hooked. He was there before school the following morning, and the morning after that, and the morning after that.
[00:04:41] Cassius was never the biggest boy in the gym, nor was he the strongest. What he had was speed and a dedication that Martin had not seen before in someone so young.
[00:04:54] Six days a week, every week, he was there before dawn. He ran. He skipped rope. He worked the bags. He sparred. Most boys his age would come down and hit a few bags, but nobody took it anywhere near as seriously as young Cassius Clay.
[00:05:16] And there was something else that struck Martin: the boy's fearless, unshakeable confidence in his own ability.
[00:05:26] Martin started to enter him in local competitions, and against all expectations, he won.
[00:05:35] He would fight against bigger, heavier, and older opponents, who on paper should have beaten him. But he kept winning.
[00:05:45] By eighteen, he was the best amateur boxer in the United States, and people around him were urging him to turn professional and start earning.
[00:05:58] He had other plans, at least in the immediate future. The 1960 Olympic Games were around the corner, Cassius Clay wanted a gold medal, and professional boxers weren't allowed at the Olympics.
[00:06:14] So, he stayed amateur, at least for a while.
[00:06:19] There was another logistical problem too. The Olympics were in Rome, and not only had Clay never been on a plane before, but he was terrified of flying.
[00:06:33] He agreed to get on the plane on the condition that he could wear a parachute. He wore it for the entire flight, and fortunately, he did not need to use it.
[00:06:45] At the Olympics, he won every fight. He won the light heavyweight gold medal.
[00:06:52] Not only this, but the Olympics showed a side to the young man that most people weren't aware of.
[00:06:59] He was charming, curious, funny, and not afraid to speak his mind. He wandered through the Olympic Village asking questions and making friends with competitors from countries he had never heard of.
[00:07:15] A Soviet journalist, who was looking to score a point about American racial politics, asked him how he felt about competing for a country where his people were treated as second-class citizens.
[00:07:30] Clay looked at him and said: "Tell your readers we’ve got qualified people working on that problem, and I’m not worried about the outcome. To me, the USA is still the best country in the world, counting yours."
[00:07:45] He came home with the gold medal around his neck, and in October 1960 he turned professional.
[00:07:54] Now, we aren't going to talk too much about his boxing history, but there are some important things to mention when it came to style.
[00:08:05] Back then, there were certain expectations about what a heavyweight boxer was meant to look like, and how they were meant to fight.
[00:08:16] Heavyweight champions were supposed to be powerful and physical and overwhelming. They stood in, absorbed punishment, and delivered it in return. That was the tradition. Two giant men landing huge blows against each other until one was declared the winner.
[00:08:38] Clay was different.
[00:08:41] He moved. He circled. He kept his hands low, which every coach told him was wrong, because it left his body exposed. You should keep your hands up to protect yourself and make it easier to punch back.
[00:08:57] No, Clay said. His reflexes were fast enough that he could move his head and duck out of the way before the punch arrived.
[00:09:08] And this strategy, well, it worked. If you've watched many of his fights, you'll know what I mean. He almost dances around the ring with his arms by his side, his opponent tries to land a knockout blow, only for Clay to duck out of the way and land a jab before his opponent has the time to steady himself.
[00:09:32] Still, many boxing commentators watching his early fights were unconvinced. This "dancing" style tired him out and left his body exposed. He would be found out eventually by someone fast enough and smart enough to take advantage.
[00:09:51] In his early career, at least, that person never came.
[00:09:58] And around the same time, he added another string to his bow.
[00:10:04] When he was nineteen, he met a man named George Wagner, who was better known by his stage name, Gorgeous George.
[00:10:15] Now, Gorgeous George was a professional wrestler, and while he was not the most technically gifted athlete, he had become incredibly famous for creating an outrageous, over-the-top persona.
[00:10:30] He dyed his hair peroxide blonde, he would be carried to the ring on a velvet cushion, he would spray perfume into the air, and declare himself "the greatest wrestler who ever lived."
[00:10:44] It was this complete self-confidence and flamboyance that brought in the crowds, and he spelled this out to Cassius Clay.
[00:10:55] "A lot of people will pay to see someone shut your mouth," George reportedly told him. "So give them a reason to want to."
[00:11:05] In other words, be so arrogant and confident that people come in the hope of watching you lose.
[00:11:13] Now, Clay already had the talent to compete, but with Gorgeous George, he had a template for how to attract attention.
[00:11:23] He began to talk about himself constantly, telling people that he was the greatest boxer ever to live, years before he became a world champion.
[00:11:34] And in February of 1964, the twenty-two-year-old Clay had the biggest fight of his career so far.
[00:11:43] His opponent was Sonny Liston, the heavyweight champion.
[00:11:49] Liston was one of the most feared men in boxing. He was a former criminal with enormous fists and a reputation for ending fights very quickly and very unpleasantly.
[00:12:03] The bookmakers made Liston an overwhelming favourite, and most commentators expected the fight to be over within a few rounds.
[00:12:13] Before the fight, Clay was his usual antagonistic self, proclaiming:
[00:12:19] "Clay comes out to meet Liston, and Liston starts to retreat.
[00:12:23] If Liston goes back any further, he'll end up in a ringside seat."
[00:12:29] The fight ended as Clay had predicted, and Cassius Clay became the heavyweight champion of the world.
[00:12:38] He ran around the ring shouting: "I shook up the world. I am the greatest thing that ever lived."
[00:12:45] But soon after the fight, the attention shifted away from his performance in the ring. Clay publicly confirmed what many people suspected: he had joined an organisation called the Nation of Islam.
[00:13:04] As part of this, he rejected the name Cassius Clay, briefly became Cassius X, and was then given the name the world would come to know him by: Muhammad Ali.
[00:13:18] Now, the Nation of Islam was not a mainstream religious organisation.
[00:13:25] It taught that Black Americans were the original people of the earth and had been subjected to centuries of deliberate oppression.
[00:13:35] It preached Black pride, Black separatism, and economic self-sufficiency. It demanded discipline from its members: no alcohol, no tobacco, no dependence on white institutions.
[00:13:50] Its leader, at that time at least, was a man named Elijah Muhammad, but its most prominent public voice was Malcolm X. In fact, we have a full episode on Malcolm X, episode 294, so that's one to listen to if you haven't done so already.
[00:14:08] But back to Cassius Clay, or to give him his new name, Muhammad Ali.
[00:14:16] This announcement was a powerful message. This was the new heavyweight boxing champion of the world publicly coming out in support of a group that was considered radical by the authorities, and treated with some suspicion by most of mainstream America.
[00:14:34] And to clarify, this wasn't him simply changing faith, switching from Baptist Christianity to Islam; it wasn't a private religious choice. It was a rejection of his past, and a public act of self-definition.
[00:14:52] He rejected “Cassius Clay” as what he called his slave name, a name that connected him to a history he had not chosen. The message was clear: I am not the compliant champion you expected.
[00:15:10] Still, many journalists and commentators refused to use this name, instead insisting on referring to him as Cassius Clay.
[00:15:20] Some opponents did too. Ernie Terrell, a heavyweight champion who fought Ali in February 1967, refused to call him by his name throughout the entire build-up to the fight.
[00:15:35] Ali made it very clear that this was unacceptable.
[00:15:40] When the fight came, Ali won it comfortably.
[00:15:43] But he did not try to end it quickly. He punished Terrell round after round, and between punches he leaned in close and asked the same question, again and again: "What's my name? What's my name?"
[00:15:59] Eventually, people stopped calling him Cassius Clay.
[00:16:05] Now, from the mid-1960s, Ali was the undisputed world heavyweight champion. But he was also a young man in an America at war with Vietnam.
[00:16:20] The military draft was reaching young men across the country, and in 1967, Ali was ordered to report for the US army.
[00:16:31] He refused to go, claiming conscientious objector status on the grounds of his Muslim faith. Ali's position was specific: his faith held that he could not kill people with whom he had no quarrel, and he had no quarrel with the Vietnamese people.
[00:16:54] Or, as he famously put it: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No Viet Cong ever called me nigger."
[00:17:03] The draft board rejected the claim, deciding that his objection was political rather than religious.
[00:17:12] And this rejection had immediate ramifications. He was stripped of his heavyweight title and his boxing licence was suspended. He was convicted of draft evasion and sentenced to five years in prison, but he was released on bail while the case was appealed.
[00:17:35] He was twenty-five years old, at the peak of his physical powers, and not only could he not box, but he had this lengthy prison sentence hanging over his head.
[00:17:49] He did not go to prison in the end. In 1971, the Supreme Court overturned his conviction, unanimously, ruling that the draft board had not given adequate reasons for rejecting his religious claim.
[00:18:05] But the three and a half years he had lost were gone.
[00:18:11] Ali did not disappear, though.
[00:18:13] Barred from boxing, he spent those years travelling across America, speaking at universities and to anyone who would listen. Many of the students he spoke to were themselves wrestling with the draft, the Vietnam War, and the growing tensions inside American society.
[00:18:34] The underlying argument in all of these lectures was serious and entirely consistent. The United States was asking Black Americans to fight overseas for freedoms they did not have at home. The war was unjust. He would not go.
[00:18:55] As the years passed, public opinion about Vietnam shifted. By 1971, the war was deeply unpopular. Ali, who had been denounced as a traitor in 1967, was increasingly seen as someone who had been right all along.
[00:19:14] The cost of that decision had been paid in full: three and a half years of his prime, the loss of his title, and a criminal conviction.
[00:19:26] Ali was allowed to return to the ring in 1970, but he returned a different man.
[00:19:34] He was older and heavier. His legs were slower. He could not move the way he once had, and he absorbed punches that the earlier version of himself would have slipped.
[00:19:48] He fought Joe Frazier three times, and the fights are among the most celebrated in boxing history, and the most complicated.
[00:19:59] Both men were Black, both came from working-class backgrounds, and both were remarkable fighters.
[00:20:07] But the politics and the press turned them into symbols of something larger: Ali the activist, the Muslim, the man who had stood up to authority; Frazier cast, somewhat unfairly, as the establishment choice.
[00:20:27] Ali lost the first fight, in March 1971, on points. It was his first professional defeat.
[00:20:36] Then came the Rumble in the Jungle. October 1974, Kinshasa, Zaire, the modern-day Democratic Republic of Congo.
[00:20:47] His opponent was George Foreman: enormous and devastating, regarded at that point as one of the most dangerous punchers in the history of the sport. Foreman had destroyed Frazier, who, remember, was the man who had given Ali his first professional defeat.
[00:21:09] The fight looked close to impossible.
[00:21:13] The strategy Ali's team had agreed on was the one he had always used: movement, speed, jabs. In the early rounds, he tried it. But Foreman was too young, too powerful. Those jabs barely troubled him.
[00:21:33] So Ali did something nobody in his corner was expecting. He went to the ropes.
[00:21:42] His trainer shouted at him between rounds to get off them. Ali ignored him. He had worked something out that he hadn't shared with anyone: if he leaned back and let Foreman throw punches, Foreman would eventually grow tired. All Ali had to do was cover up and wait.
[00:22:05] Round after round, Foreman threw enormous blows. Ali absorbed them and waited. By the eighth round, Foreman's arms were heavy. Ali came off the ropes and knocked him out.
[00:22:23] It was perhaps the greatest single tactical performance in boxing history. By a man who was thirty-two years old, who had spent three and a half years outside his sport, and whose best days looked like they were behind him.
[00:22:42] The third Frazier fight, the Thrilla in Manila in October 1975, was something else entirely. Both men were so damaged by the fourteenth round that Frazier's trainer stopped the fight rather than send him out for the fifteenth. Ali later said it was the closest thing to death he had ever experienced.
[00:23:08] Now, Muhammad Ali fought on longer than he should have.
[00:23:12] He lost the title, won it back, lost it again.
[00:23:17] By his final years in the ring, the fights were increasingly hard to watch.
[00:23:23] There was one fight in 1980, when Ali was 38, that was particularly painful. It was against a man named Larry Holmes, who had grown up in complete admiration of Ali.
[00:23:38] Although it went to the tenth round, it was so one-sided it was almost embarrassing. Holmes reportedly wept in his dressing room afterwards, saying he felt like he had been hitting a ghost.
[00:23:54] Ali retired in 1981 with fifty-six wins and five losses.
[00:24:02] And in 1984, he was diagnosed with Parkinson's syndrome, the neurological condition that affects movement and speech.
[00:24:13] He never publicly confirmed that it had been caused by the blows he had taken over thirty years of boxing. But many doctors believed it had.
[00:24:23] He had taken far more damage than was good for him, more than his trainers and managers should have allowed.
[00:24:31] You might have seen some interviews with him in his later years. His voice, that quick and irreverent voice, became quieter and harder to understand. His hands started to tremble.
[00:24:47] At the opening ceremony of the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, Ali was chosen to light the cauldron. He walked out with the torch, his hand trembling visibly, and there was almost a collective intake of breath as this great champion stood there, a shadow of the man he once was.
[00:25:10] He died on 3 June 2016, at the age of seventy-four.
[00:25:17] He had refused to fight in a war at twenty-five. He had been stripped of his title and his livelihood.
[00:25:24] He had come back and produced one of the greatest second acts in sporting history. He had stood before the legal system of the most powerful country on earth and said no.
[00:25:38] He had chosen his own name, and made the world use it.
[00:25:43] He referred to himself as "The Greatest". There are only a few people who could say that with a straight face and have much of the world agree with them.
[00:25:53] Muhammad Ali was certainly one of them.
[00:25:58] OK, then, that is it for today's episode on Muhammad Ali.
[00:26:03] I hope it's been an interesting one and that you've learnt something new.
[00:26:07] You've been listening to English Learning for Curious Minds by Leonardo English.
[00:26:11] I'm Alastair Budge, you stay safe, and I'll catch you in the next episode.
[00:00:04] Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to English Learning for Curious Minds, by Leonardo English, the show where you can listen to fascinating stories and learn weird and wonderful things about the world at the same time as improving your English.
[00:00:21] I'm Alastair Budge, and today we are going to be talking about Muhammad Ali.
[00:00:28] It's a story about a boxing champion, obviously, but it's also one of identity, civil rights, religion, courage, and the cost of greatness.
[00:00:40] We have a lot to get through today, so let's get right into it.
[00:00:47] If someone told you their name was Cassius Marcellus, your first thought might be that their parents were unusually passionate about Ancient Rome.
[00:00:59] But Cassius Marcellus Clay, the boy born in Louisville, Kentucky, in 1942, was not given this name because of any passion for the Romans; he had the name because his father was given it before him, after a 19th century Kentucky politician of the same name.
[00:01:20] And perhaps that politician’s parents really were fans of Ancient Rome, given that they named another son Brutus Junius.
[00:01:30] Now, this original Cassius Marcellus Clay was an interesting character in his own right; he came from a wealthy and powerful slave-owning family before becoming an anti-slavery activist.
[00:01:43] But today we are talking about the other Cassius Marcellus Clay, Cassius Marcellus Clay Junior, the man more commonly known by the name Muhammad Ali.
[00:01:59] At the start of our story, of course, he was still Cassius.
[00:02:04] His mother, Odessa, was a domestic worker, serving a white family. And his father, Cassius Senior, painted signs for a living. It was, by all accounts, an ordinary childhood: church on Sundays, a modest house, and parents who worked hard to provide for their children.
[00:02:27] But this was America of the 1940s and 1950s, an America that was still deeply divided.
[00:02:36] Black people could live, work, and move with some freedom in certain parts of a city; in others, they were not welcome at all, and they were constantly reminded that they were second-class citizens.
[00:02:51] Now, the story of how Cassius Clay found boxing has become part of boxing folklore, and it goes like this.
[00:03:01] He was twelve years old. He had gone to a fair with some friends, and left his bike outside.
[00:03:10] When he returned, he found the bike was gone. Someone had stolen it.
[00:03:17] He was distraught; it was his pride and joy, his parents had saved up to buy it for him, and someone had snatched it away from him.
[00:03:29] He asked around, and was directed to a local police officer called Joe Martin. Martin patiently listened as the young boy threatened to "whup" the thief when he found him.
[00:03:45] At this time, Cassius Clay was a scrawny little twelve-year-old, so Martin, the police officer, decided he needed to give him some advice, advice that has become legend: "well, you'd better learn how to fight first".
[00:04:02] Now, Cassius Clay never got his bike back, and never managed to "whup" the thief.
[00:04:10] But the meeting, and this advice, would change his life.
[00:04:16] See, Joe Martin, the police officer, also ran a boxing gym, and suggested the young boy come and do some training.
[00:04:27] He did, and by all accounts, he was instantly hooked. He was there before school the following morning, and the morning after that, and the morning after that.
[00:04:41] Cassius was never the biggest boy in the gym, nor was he the strongest. What he had was speed and a dedication that Martin had not seen before in someone so young.
[00:04:54] Six days a week, every week, he was there before dawn. He ran. He skipped rope. He worked the bags. He sparred. Most boys his age would come down and hit a few bags, but nobody took it anywhere near as seriously as young Cassius Clay.
[00:05:16] And there was something else that struck Martin: the boy's fearless, unshakeable confidence in his own ability.
[00:05:26] Martin started to enter him in local competitions, and against all expectations, he won.
[00:05:35] He would fight against bigger, heavier, and older opponents, who on paper should have beaten him. But he kept winning.
[00:05:45] By eighteen, he was the best amateur boxer in the United States, and people around him were urging him to turn professional and start earning.
[00:05:58] He had other plans, at least in the immediate future. The 1960 Olympic Games were around the corner, Cassius Clay wanted a gold medal, and professional boxers weren't allowed at the Olympics.
[00:06:14] So, he stayed amateur, at least for a while.
[00:06:19] There was another logistical problem too. The Olympics were in Rome, and not only had Clay never been on a plane before, but he was terrified of flying.
[00:06:33] He agreed to get on the plane on the condition that he could wear a parachute. He wore it for the entire flight, and fortunately, he did not need to use it.
[00:06:45] At the Olympics, he won every fight. He won the light heavyweight gold medal.
[00:06:52] Not only this, but the Olympics showed a side to the young man that most people weren't aware of.
[00:06:59] He was charming, curious, funny, and not afraid to speak his mind. He wandered through the Olympic Village asking questions and making friends with competitors from countries he had never heard of.
[00:07:15] A Soviet journalist, who was looking to score a point about American racial politics, asked him how he felt about competing for a country where his people were treated as second-class citizens.
[00:07:30] Clay looked at him and said: "Tell your readers we’ve got qualified people working on that problem, and I’m not worried about the outcome. To me, the USA is still the best country in the world, counting yours."
[00:07:45] He came home with the gold medal around his neck, and in October 1960 he turned professional.
[00:07:54] Now, we aren't going to talk too much about his boxing history, but there are some important things to mention when it came to style.
[00:08:05] Back then, there were certain expectations about what a heavyweight boxer was meant to look like, and how they were meant to fight.
[00:08:16] Heavyweight champions were supposed to be powerful and physical and overwhelming. They stood in, absorbed punishment, and delivered it in return. That was the tradition. Two giant men landing huge blows against each other until one was declared the winner.
[00:08:38] Clay was different.
[00:08:41] He moved. He circled. He kept his hands low, which every coach told him was wrong, because it left his body exposed. You should keep your hands up to protect yourself and make it easier to punch back.
[00:08:57] No, Clay said. His reflexes were fast enough that he could move his head and duck out of the way before the punch arrived.
[00:09:08] And this strategy, well, it worked. If you've watched many of his fights, you'll know what I mean. He almost dances around the ring with his arms by his side, his opponent tries to land a knockout blow, only for Clay to duck out of the way and land a jab before his opponent has the time to steady himself.
[00:09:32] Still, many boxing commentators watching his early fights were unconvinced. This "dancing" style tired him out and left his body exposed. He would be found out eventually by someone fast enough and smart enough to take advantage.
[00:09:51] In his early career, at least, that person never came.
[00:09:58] And around the same time, he added another string to his bow.
[00:10:04] When he was nineteen, he met a man named George Wagner, who was better known by his stage name, Gorgeous George.
[00:10:15] Now, Gorgeous George was a professional wrestler, and while he was not the most technically gifted athlete, he had become incredibly famous for creating an outrageous, over-the-top persona.
[00:10:30] He dyed his hair peroxide blonde, he would be carried to the ring on a velvet cushion, he would spray perfume into the air, and declare himself "the greatest wrestler who ever lived."
[00:10:44] It was this complete self-confidence and flamboyance that brought in the crowds, and he spelled this out to Cassius Clay.
[00:10:55] "A lot of people will pay to see someone shut your mouth," George reportedly told him. "So give them a reason to want to."
[00:11:05] In other words, be so arrogant and confident that people come in the hope of watching you lose.
[00:11:13] Now, Clay already had the talent to compete, but with Gorgeous George, he had a template for how to attract attention.
[00:11:23] He began to talk about himself constantly, telling people that he was the greatest boxer ever to live, years before he became a world champion.
[00:11:34] And in February of 1964, the twenty-two-year-old Clay had the biggest fight of his career so far.
[00:11:43] His opponent was Sonny Liston, the heavyweight champion.
[00:11:49] Liston was one of the most feared men in boxing. He was a former criminal with enormous fists and a reputation for ending fights very quickly and very unpleasantly.
[00:12:03] The bookmakers made Liston an overwhelming favourite, and most commentators expected the fight to be over within a few rounds.
[00:12:13] Before the fight, Clay was his usual antagonistic self, proclaiming:
[00:12:19] "Clay comes out to meet Liston, and Liston starts to retreat.
[00:12:23] If Liston goes back any further, he'll end up in a ringside seat."
[00:12:29] The fight ended as Clay had predicted, and Cassius Clay became the heavyweight champion of the world.
[00:12:38] He ran around the ring shouting: "I shook up the world. I am the greatest thing that ever lived."
[00:12:45] But soon after the fight, the attention shifted away from his performance in the ring. Clay publicly confirmed what many people suspected: he had joined an organisation called the Nation of Islam.
[00:13:04] As part of this, he rejected the name Cassius Clay, briefly became Cassius X, and was then given the name the world would come to know him by: Muhammad Ali.
[00:13:18] Now, the Nation of Islam was not a mainstream religious organisation.
[00:13:25] It taught that Black Americans were the original people of the earth and had been subjected to centuries of deliberate oppression.
[00:13:35] It preached Black pride, Black separatism, and economic self-sufficiency. It demanded discipline from its members: no alcohol, no tobacco, no dependence on white institutions.
[00:13:50] Its leader, at that time at least, was a man named Elijah Muhammad, but its most prominent public voice was Malcolm X. In fact, we have a full episode on Malcolm X, episode 294, so that's one to listen to if you haven't done so already.
[00:14:08] But back to Cassius Clay, or to give him his new name, Muhammad Ali.
[00:14:16] This announcement was a powerful message. This was the new heavyweight boxing champion of the world publicly coming out in support of a group that was considered radical by the authorities, and treated with some suspicion by most of mainstream America.
[00:14:34] And to clarify, this wasn't him simply changing faith, switching from Baptist Christianity to Islam; it wasn't a private religious choice. It was a rejection of his past, and a public act of self-definition.
[00:14:52] He rejected “Cassius Clay” as what he called his slave name, a name that connected him to a history he had not chosen. The message was clear: I am not the compliant champion you expected.
[00:15:10] Still, many journalists and commentators refused to use this name, instead insisting on referring to him as Cassius Clay.
[00:15:20] Some opponents did too. Ernie Terrell, a heavyweight champion who fought Ali in February 1967, refused to call him by his name throughout the entire build-up to the fight.
[00:15:35] Ali made it very clear that this was unacceptable.
[00:15:40] When the fight came, Ali won it comfortably.
[00:15:43] But he did not try to end it quickly. He punished Terrell round after round, and between punches he leaned in close and asked the same question, again and again: "What's my name? What's my name?"
[00:15:59] Eventually, people stopped calling him Cassius Clay.
[00:16:05] Now, from the mid-1960s, Ali was the undisputed world heavyweight champion. But he was also a young man in an America at war with Vietnam.
[00:16:20] The military draft was reaching young men across the country, and in 1967, Ali was ordered to report for the US army.
[00:16:31] He refused to go, claiming conscientious objector status on the grounds of his Muslim faith. Ali's position was specific: his faith held that he could not kill people with whom he had no quarrel, and he had no quarrel with the Vietnamese people.
[00:16:54] Or, as he famously put it: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No Viet Cong ever called me nigger."
[00:17:03] The draft board rejected the claim, deciding that his objection was political rather than religious.
[00:17:12] And this rejection had immediate ramifications. He was stripped of his heavyweight title and his boxing licence was suspended. He was convicted of draft evasion and sentenced to five years in prison, but he was released on bail while the case was appealed.
[00:17:35] He was twenty-five years old, at the peak of his physical powers, and not only could he not box, but he had this lengthy prison sentence hanging over his head.
[00:17:49] He did not go to prison in the end. In 1971, the Supreme Court overturned his conviction, unanimously, ruling that the draft board had not given adequate reasons for rejecting his religious claim.
[00:18:05] But the three and a half years he had lost were gone.
[00:18:11] Ali did not disappear, though.
[00:18:13] Barred from boxing, he spent those years travelling across America, speaking at universities and to anyone who would listen. Many of the students he spoke to were themselves wrestling with the draft, the Vietnam War, and the growing tensions inside American society.
[00:18:34] The underlying argument in all of these lectures was serious and entirely consistent. The United States was asking Black Americans to fight overseas for freedoms they did not have at home. The war was unjust. He would not go.
[00:18:55] As the years passed, public opinion about Vietnam shifted. By 1971, the war was deeply unpopular. Ali, who had been denounced as a traitor in 1967, was increasingly seen as someone who had been right all along.
[00:19:14] The cost of that decision had been paid in full: three and a half years of his prime, the loss of his title, and a criminal conviction.
[00:19:26] Ali was allowed to return to the ring in 1970, but he returned a different man.
[00:19:34] He was older and heavier. His legs were slower. He could not move the way he once had, and he absorbed punches that the earlier version of himself would have slipped.
[00:19:48] He fought Joe Frazier three times, and the fights are among the most celebrated in boxing history, and the most complicated.
[00:19:59] Both men were Black, both came from working-class backgrounds, and both were remarkable fighters.
[00:20:07] But the politics and the press turned them into symbols of something larger: Ali the activist, the Muslim, the man who had stood up to authority; Frazier cast, somewhat unfairly, as the establishment choice.
[00:20:27] Ali lost the first fight, in March 1971, on points. It was his first professional defeat.
[00:20:36] Then came the Rumble in the Jungle. October 1974, Kinshasa, Zaire, the modern-day Democratic Republic of Congo.
[00:20:47] His opponent was George Foreman: enormous and devastating, regarded at that point as one of the most dangerous punchers in the history of the sport. Foreman had destroyed Frazier, who, remember, was the man who had given Ali his first professional defeat.
[00:21:09] The fight looked close to impossible.
[00:21:13] The strategy Ali's team had agreed on was the one he had always used: movement, speed, jabs. In the early rounds, he tried it. But Foreman was too young, too powerful. Those jabs barely troubled him.
[00:21:33] So Ali did something nobody in his corner was expecting. He went to the ropes.
[00:21:42] His trainer shouted at him between rounds to get off them. Ali ignored him. He had worked something out that he hadn't shared with anyone: if he leaned back and let Foreman throw punches, Foreman would eventually grow tired. All Ali had to do was cover up and wait.
[00:22:05] Round after round, Foreman threw enormous blows. Ali absorbed them and waited. By the eighth round, Foreman's arms were heavy. Ali came off the ropes and knocked him out.
[00:22:23] It was perhaps the greatest single tactical performance in boxing history. By a man who was thirty-two years old, who had spent three and a half years outside his sport, and whose best days looked like they were behind him.
[00:22:42] The third Frazier fight, the Thrilla in Manila in October 1975, was something else entirely. Both men were so damaged by the fourteenth round that Frazier's trainer stopped the fight rather than send him out for the fifteenth. Ali later said it was the closest thing to death he had ever experienced.
[00:23:08] Now, Muhammad Ali fought on longer than he should have.
[00:23:12] He lost the title, won it back, lost it again.
[00:23:17] By his final years in the ring, the fights were increasingly hard to watch.
[00:23:23] There was one fight in 1980, when Ali was 38, that was particularly painful. It was against a man named Larry Holmes, who had grown up in complete admiration of Ali.
[00:23:38] Although it went to the tenth round, it was so one-sided it was almost embarrassing. Holmes reportedly wept in his dressing room afterwards, saying he felt like he had been hitting a ghost.
[00:23:54] Ali retired in 1981 with fifty-six wins and five losses.
[00:24:02] And in 1984, he was diagnosed with Parkinson's syndrome, the neurological condition that affects movement and speech.
[00:24:13] He never publicly confirmed that it had been caused by the blows he had taken over thirty years of boxing. But many doctors believed it had.
[00:24:23] He had taken far more damage than was good for him, more than his trainers and managers should have allowed.
[00:24:31] You might have seen some interviews with him in his later years. His voice, that quick and irreverent voice, became quieter and harder to understand. His hands started to tremble.
[00:24:47] At the opening ceremony of the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, Ali was chosen to light the cauldron. He walked out with the torch, his hand trembling visibly, and there was almost a collective intake of breath as this great champion stood there, a shadow of the man he once was.
[00:25:10] He died on 3 June 2016, at the age of seventy-four.
[00:25:17] He had refused to fight in a war at twenty-five. He had been stripped of his title and his livelihood.
[00:25:24] He had come back and produced one of the greatest second acts in sporting history. He had stood before the legal system of the most powerful country on earth and said no.
[00:25:38] He had chosen his own name, and made the world use it.
[00:25:43] He referred to himself as "The Greatest". There are only a few people who could say that with a straight face and have much of the world agree with them.
[00:25:53] Muhammad Ali was certainly one of them.
[00:25:58] OK, then, that is it for today's episode on Muhammad Ali.
[00:26:03] I hope it's been an interesting one and that you've learnt something new.
[00:26:07] You've been listening to English Learning for Curious Minds by Leonardo English.
[00:26:11] I'm Alastair Budge, you stay safe, and I'll catch you in the next episode.
